If you're having difficulty with the maths this translates to more than 180ps at the crank once you factor in transmission loss. At least 5 more ps can be liberated by fine tuning the A/F ratio. As you can see the mapping's too rich from 4000+ rpm onwards. I would also tweak the cam lobe separation settings for more torque. Pls note that this engine is still running on hydraulic lifters. Cylinder head is standard fully ported 4G93T RS. Engine is Naturally Aspirated. No MIVEC or Snail cheating here. For comparison sake, a stock B16A big VTEC will dyno around 140-145ps. A B18C Spec R will dyno around 160ps. A stock 4G93P will dyno around 110ps or less. The new owner has lotsa mods planned to take the SP to the next level. Most importantly he also has the budget I don't have.
56 comments:
whoa.. real nice results bro...
why is ur torque curve a lil wacky? is it cox of ur cams? or the j5 ecu?
Prob'l both..
haiya.. first time i see this blog and u sold you Putra already.. HA HA !!
Anyway, i drive a Stock putra too.. Completely STOCK.. but since u got 180hp.. will run thru your blog to see what you've done to keep in NA with that HP. Have had my putra for almost 2 years. and too poor to do more with the car. Interested in some R3 mods, especially and exhaust from R3 but they don't make one for the putra. anyway.. great blog.
man. i would really love to keep tabs on the upgrades on the sp. does the new owner have a blog? (i doubt)
wish u kept ur car. T_T
prometheus, if u are using the 4g93 dohc variant, r3's 4-1 extractor does fit ur car. it will even fit the sohc variant, but im not too sure about the gains.
stock 4g93p makes more than 110whp shame on you >:P
180hp not bad at all ;) at least all that hardwork paid off.
Bro, I would be happy if u would reply my mail. I asked about those SuperPro's!
John Bro,
Why? Yours makes much more?
A Yasir,
Sorry.. I've not used Mugen bushes so can't comments on those compared to the Superpros.
andrew, i keep over-tightening my coilover adjustable pillow ball mount bolts... would like to get em titanium ones... where do i get em from? are you able to help me order sum in? of cox id pay more than the price you get if for. ensuring you profit. (but not too much la) hehehe
SV,
Warning, the bolts might cost as much as the PB. What specifically are you looking for? Give me the type of bolt, thread size, length and thread pitch.
oh man.. well im not sure on what thread size and thread pitch are. as in, im unfamiliar wit this terminology.
do u have to order them frm overseas or avail here? u had ur pb bolts replaced with ti ones. 4 per side, 8 total but im lookin to purchase 4 extra ones just in case. how much did urs cost?
Prob'l M6 X 20 sized allen socket cap bolts then. All the bolts are from UK or Italy. 4 bolts and equivalent washers should cost more than 200 bucks.
WOW!!!! *cough* i THINK ill have to think it over...
how do u afford the stuff on ur car man....
so SS bolts are next in line? do they have diff grades? ie. harder ones?
the ones im using now are ss... kinda soft. btw is there a technique of how many washers you use for the PB's or how thick, so that they hold well and not slide off settings when hard force is applied?
Whatdayya expect? It's titanium. I use only one washer and one spring washer. Judging by the way you are explaining the design of your PBs must be bad. My Cuscos never slide or move when adjusting.
sv,
why not use high tensile steel socket head bolts instead of stainless steal. as far as i know, stainless steel is alot softer and you don't get grades 8.8 or higher (pls correct me). i'd got for a socket head bolt with a grade of 10.9 or 12.9.
andrew saw,
amazing that 180whp is achievable. makes me have something to look forward too. but i'd like to ask (i don't think it's covered in detail in your blog) why the 4G93T RS cylinder head? is it due to the added strength (if any) or something to do with the cylinder specs? pls enlighten me.
my pb doesnt slide around. im just paranoid. since im always wacking the car around at time attacks and climbing the curbs at sepang.
whatdamn, thanx fer the advice.. so high tensile steel is harder than stainless? what grade would be best? hardest and yet easy to get frm the local bolt supplier?
andrew, u knoe any? i guess the ti ones are out of the q right now. but love em. i cant imagine how much u have spend on the stainless, alu and ti fasteners in ur car. mind to tell?
Already mentioned on my blog. Think >5K by the time I sold da SP. Stainless and mild steel fasteners can be had from any fastener shop. Don't know of any in KL. Only Penang.
whatdamn,
Actually I'm confident 190hp at the crank with 180+Nm is achievable with more fine tuning.
93T cylinder head has bigger ports. 93T RS even bigger ports :P
ok. thanx loads again andrew... will look around for the steel fasteners as whatdamn said they are harder than ss.
4g93t rs comes frm what car again? might have missed it on ur blog. sry. are there a large number of these lying around in halfcut shops or damn rare?
andrew,
i see. i've always read that the main differences from the aforementioned engines were the intercooler size and bodykits! guess i'll have to read up more. since you mentioned bigger ports, are they achievable with the 93P block? or would the walls end up too thin and more prone to failure after porting to RS sized ports?
sv,
don't go to a hardware store to shop for fasteners. your best bet would be to search in yellowpages.com.my or superpages.com.my to find a fasteners supplier closest to your area. i think you should read up on bolt grades or fasteners in general before you go shopping for one. try to learn the terminology used as some shops will be really annoyed if you don't know what you want. also, you could learn something new :)
new owner here!
whatdamn,
the ports are the inlet and exhaust ports which are on the cylinder head. They have nothing to do with the 93P block. I do not think you are able to port the 93P head to that of a ported 93T RS head. With a massively ported head you will need to be careful with the water and oil temperature as the thinner walls can be prone to cracking at high temperature.
Have experienced this on my other ride. Not only that when porting care must be taken to the shape of the ports and the smoothness of the port rather than outright size.
andrew,
I am confident that 190hp is possible too! :) Just dont have the time to see charlie yet to get a new mapping.
The symbroski kit with the Ti fasteners should be going in this weekend, if time permits.
mugil,
sorry for using the wrong terminology. i meant 'block' as in the engine as a whole (including the cylinder head). so basically i should look for a 93T or RS head alone or do i need the block as well?
as for the issue on cracks due to wall thickness, i'd like to know how much bigger are the inlet manifold and exhaust ports are in comparison to the 93P's. would you say ~2mm for 93T and ~3mm for the RS?
thanks.
hope to see you getting a blog and keeping readers who are very keen to see the maximum whp that the SP can produce.
good luck. :)
U can prob'l port a 93P head to 93T RS levels but the tuner better know what he's doing and there's too much portin work involved so costs will be massive.
93T block has oil jets to cool the underside of the piston btw. Any modder aiming for more than 30% power to the 4G93 better get this block.
andrew,
just wanted to know the differences between the two engines. like what you said, it wouldn't be feasible to remove that much material.
aside from that, the additional inlets/outlets for the turbo were plugged up?
so basically i would need a 4693T engine (regardless RS or not) 'kosong' and start from there right? i read that you used 4g92 pistons, so does that require any alterations to the crankshaft?
does the flywheel need to be a 93T one or will the 93P fit as well? read in an old post in zth that flywheels from these engines are different.
Well at a dyno day a few people who were stock dyno'ed at 118whp :D
I was wondering are the 4g92p pistons as effective as the mivec 4g92 pistons?
whatdamn, ill definitely look it up. thanx!
mugil, really hope you blog about the sp and the future mods to come!!!
John,
You sure they're stock? Lotsa "stock" cars out there dynoeing 140ps
Whatdamn,
93T flywheel same size as EVO1-3. use a CA4A 4G92G MIVEC flywheel which is basically the same as the 93P flywheel.
Well when i dyno'ed my car that day i hit 128whp that's just with extractor, de-catted and a 2 inch rear box. Same 1.8 inch midpiping between exhaust manifold and rear box. Nothing else.
That's not stock. Piping and extractor if correctly done will liberate more than 10 horsies. De-catting alone is worth nearly 6 horsies.
andrew,
ah i see. you and alucard pretty much cleared it up for me. thanks :).
sv,
yes, please DO NOT over-torque any bolt for that matter. anyway, an alternative to see if you're paranoid or your bolts are really shifting around, why not take a marker pen or something to mark the position of your current setting, then drive around some empty carpark autocross style to keep loading the suspensions, then finally stop and check on those bolts. if they haven't moved, chances are that you don't need to change them. do the same the next time you're at sepang to confirm.
alucard,
didn't intend on specifically using the 93T flywheel. i was just wondering if it was a required part. so what you're saying is that the connecting rods for the 92P and 93P and 93T are similar? hmmm, that would be nice. at least there's no need to specifically find a 92P con-rod then.
thanx guys.. will definitely try not to over tighten. i have this prob of always over tightening almost everything... damn paranoid. im trying to limit myself....
anyway i read up on the bolt strength and material ratings and all. thanx alot. now i know what i want...
still want to get harder bolts as im afraid of the mechs over-tightening like i did to mine and snap the head right off (SS is really soft). plus, the allen key hole wont get loose too after repeated adjusting. my ss ones are already slightly deformed (allen key hole) after just 3 allignment sessions in 2 months.
alucard,
thanks for the info. i forgot that the con-rods should be different. 92P ones are shorter due to a shorter stroke right? if that's the case, i'm assuming that 93T and 93P ocn-rods are similar due to their stroke.
sv,
you're telling me. hahah. jfa exhaust used SS bolts for my roll cage and boy did they fcuk up the install big time. not only did they not drill the holes properly, but they gave me SS bolts! after a month, i checked the bolts to see if they were bent...true enough. some where quite difficult to remove. finally replaced them with socket head bolts of grade 12.9 with stainless steel nuts. true that the SS bolt and nut won't rust...but their tensile properties are horrible unless you can find those specialty SS bolts meant for high tensile uses. which would probably cost you an arm and a leg.
jonn,
form what i've gathered, there should be a difference between the 2 pistons. since both mivec and 92P engines have similar bore and stroke, the only diff is the compression ratio, 10:1 for 92P and 11:1 for mivec. i suspect higher volume domed heads on the mivec to provide a higher compression. unless the head gasket bore and thickness are different which could also influence the compression ratio. anyone can give further input?
jack, im using ss fasteners. yeah mech will use almost everything to make the job easier for them. well the allen key hole usually comes loose after awhile. think im using ultra soft grade ones. hahaha
will definitely go get em steel ones. going to jln kuching area. saw a shop there.
whatdamn, where did u get ur 12.9 grade ones? got the adress? or maybe the company name? so far i only know of 2 fastener speciality shops. one at jln kuching and one at jln loke yew there. i think.
SV,
How on earth do you tighten your bolts. I have never snapped a stainless bolt desipite >7 years of usage. SS is stiffer than the mild steel bolts that come with the car btw.
btw, whats the proper way to move the PB mounts? by hand only? i also duno.
It's not just the pistons that determine compression ratio but also the combustion chamber design. The MIVEC differs from the 93P/T in this aspect.
Of course you move the PBs by hand lar..
sry, off topic a lil.
andrew, sumtime back, i read in the team matrix forums, you posted sum tips on how to lighten the car.
can we actually just remove the charcoal canister like that? no side effects? the charcoal canister only serves to absorb the fuel fumes am i right? haf u done it?
sv,
i usually get my fasteners from everlast bolts. they're located near mine's shopping center as it's the closest fastener shop in my area. another shop which is easier to locate would be along jalan gasing where esso, 7-11, SFX church and the nga choi chicken rice are located. you should notice a bolts store next to the 7-11. so yeah, you could check that place out since everyone knows the federal highway and it's not too deep into pj.
andrew,
i think the reason the mild steel bolts are softer is because they're torque-to-yield bolts right? never reuse these type of bolts as they're designed to yield! some of you may know it as angle bolts.
regarding the pistons, from the info i got online, i could only come to a conclusion that both cylinders are of a similar design since the bore and stroke are the same. :P. which is why i thought the dome of the mivec piston is of higher volume compared to 92P.
soooo, i guess mivec pistons would be better since a higher compression is achievable right? i'm afraid of engine knock occurring though. should i be concerned?
SV,
The charcoal cannister is still on the Sp.
Whatdamn,
If I'm not mistaken compression with the MIVEC pistons is something in the high 12s or 13s. No way you're gonna get around with 97 octane petrol. Compression is already stupendously high with the 92P pistons. With the Hegami 0.4mm metal head gasket my compression is around 11.9:1.
if i remove it, what will happen?
Nothing. Maybe a smellier engine bay :P
smellier? as in petrol fumes smelly?
wouldnt it be denjeles? having petrol fumes lingering in the hot engine bay like that?
If you're leaking enough petrol fumes in the engine bay to start a fire, not having a charcoal cannister is the least of your worries :P
andrew,
hmm, oh well then it'll be hunting time for 92P pistons since they're sufficient.
another thing, i just swapped the intake manifold form 93P to 93T and i've got a problem with a port on the 93P head (really small one) that is next to the thermostat area. the old 93P intake manifold had an extra flange to cover up that hole but now the 93T doesn't!
how do i solve this problem without swapping heads (to a 93T) at the moment?
cause the engine is producing a loud ticking sound and the engine roars like crazy! do i need to cover this hole (i strongly believe that i do or else in the long term it could mess up my engine)
HELP!
hahaha ic. alrite then. off with the canister!!!
Or get a 4G93T head. Bigger ports and the 93T does not run the ^*&$ EGR :)
alucard,
i know what the EGR is there for the thing that confuses me is that the 4g91 engines also do not run an EGR system but they still have that hole in the cylinder head! further more, i pushed a screwdriver into the 4g91 egr port and there's nothing blocking it. unless it is blocked form inside the head where i would only be able to see it if i opened up the engine.
andrew,
looking for one. :P but still contemplating the engine block because some relocation needs to be done to the aircon and oil filter? that's what i gathered from the TMM forums la.
pls advise.
Whatdamn,
Errr.. advise on what? Me blur...
andrew,
oops, should have mentioned that i still need advice on whether the hole should be covered up or not. as i mentioned, the 4g91 has that hole and it's not blocked as far as i can tell.
Bro,
Believe Jack has already answered your question. Yes, the hole will need to be covered
andrew,
i know it has to be covered. what i'm wondering is howcome the 4g91 engine doesn't need to be blocked.
hey guys, i already removed the charcoal canister frm the engine bay. plugged the hose leading to the engine. the hose frm the pertol tank thou i left open. tought its needed to release pressure frm the fuel tank due to vapor build up. is this ok? or shall i put a restrictor or sum sort so that the vapor doesnt escape too fast and dry up my petrol?
argh i missed so much chatting. i can't wait to get my 92P pistons into my mivec 1.8 huhuhu. Of course then it will be piggy back time :P and not just safc :P
just thought i would completely off tangent.
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